“India and Brazil are closer than ever today...”

Brazil and India, large democracies and developing countries of continental size, have been playing a constructive role in international affairs and maintaining friendly relations with other countries. They are both committed towards a just and equitable international order. The two countries are unique in their respective regions and in the global sphere in view of their similarities and profile and potential. They share similar perceptions on issues of interest to developing countries and have cooperated in multilateral fora on issues such as international trade and development, environment, reform of the UN and the UN Security Council expansion. Both are members of G-15 and G-20. India, Brazil and South Africa launched the “India-Brazil South Africa (IBSA) Dialogue Forum” popularly known as the G-3. And Brazil and India, along with Germany and Japan, together known as the G4 nations, launched a joint effort for permament seats on the United Nations Security Council after meeting on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly in New York.

Within a span of eight years, India has hosted two Brazilian Presidents as its Chief Guest for the Republic Day celebrations. In 1996, President Fernando Henrique Cardoso was the Chief Guest, and in 2004, President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva.

This new phase in bilateral relations is based on the common determination to fully utilise the substantial potential and opportunities prevalent for deepening mutually beneficial cooperation. It aims to promote socio-economic development and prosperity of both India and Brazil, to strengthen multipolarity at the international level, and to enhance the positive factors of globalisation. Brazil and India are countries with rich untapped natural resources and emerging infrastructural requirements. Given their varied experience in high technology and industrial areas, they could, in a spirit of South-South cooperation, share expertise in many areas.

Brazil has acknowledged India’s proven expertise in diverse knowledge-based industries, and is interested in working with both Indian government agencies and the private sector in related areas. The visit of President Lula to India offered an excellent opportunity to widen and deepen bilateral cooperation in a number of areas, including tourism, science & technology, space, agriculture, railways, pharmaceuticals, education, and multilateral economic cooperation.

Considering these commonalities and convergences, the partnership between the two countries is natural and inevitable.

Sunil K Sukumaran, editor, in conversation with H.E. Jose Vicente Pimentel, the Brazilian Ambassador to India.

• At the first World Social Forum in Porto Alegre, Brazil, President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva was cheered: not just as a heroic figure who vowed to take on the forces of the market and eradicate hunger, but as an innovator whose party was at the forefront of developing tools for impoverished people to meet their own needs.

• During his campaign for president, he told and retold a personal story about how voters could trust him because he came from poverty, and knew their pain. But standing up to the demands of the international financial community isn’t about whether an individual politician is trustworthy; it’s about the fact that no individual or party is strong enough on its own.

• Subsequently, it looked as if President Lula had only two choices: abandoning his election promises of wealth redistribution or trying to force them through and ending up in a Chavez-style civil war. But there is another option, one his own Workers Party has tried before, one that made Porto Alegre itself a beacon of a new kind of politics: More Democracy.

The first three questions are actually a package, and I will address them together. Before taking up this assignment in India, I was posted in Los Angeles. At the presidential election of 2002, a section of the American media, then critical of President Lula, even went so far as to warn of an impending nexus of evil between Lula, Chavez and Castro, and the potential problems it would pose vis-à-vis US foreign policy. Now, even his harshest critics agree that they were perhaps too hasty in their initial assessment of President Lula. The Brazilian President is dynamic, charismatic and has become an international figure, be it in Europe, Asia, or the Americas. I had said then and will say now that Brazil would be a positive influence among South American countries, due to its character, culture and history. President Lula is enhancing that tradition.

Some of President Lula’s critics anticipated he would pursue a disastrous left-wing economic policy. Now some critics consider his economic policy to be actually a bit too conservative. The fact is Brazil’s economic policy has basically maintained some fundamentals that are required of all countries taking part in the globalisation process. But that doesn’t mean that developing countries have simply to underwrite the policies that maintain the world scene forever in the current levels of inequality. Like in India, Brazilian policies highlight social aspects, keeping in view macro-economic stability. President Lula has also been polarising - that I mean in a good sense - as it is necessary to think outside the box in today’s world. Hunger, for instance, is a terrible reality. So the Brazilian President proposed the “Zero hunger” programme that aims at providing each citizen with the adequate amount of daily nutrition. Many world leaders are supporting this idea, yet so dramatically powerful. Trade barriers should be abolished. And so we are working with India and the other members of the G-20 to accomplish that goal in 5 years time.

Brazil and India have common interests of such magnitude that we will move even closer in a few years. To achieve that we need to first of all make Brazil well known in India, and vice versa. There is already great interest and respect for India in Brazil. Fads such as yoga, Indian fashion, etc., are prevalent, but that is only a mere glimpse of what India has to offer. To further relations, I feel that trade and business between the two countries should be given an impetus; since as everyone agrees that when one makes more money, one becomes more interested, to put it simplistically. But an effective way of improving trade is via culture, as you would normally engage with confidence with someone whom you know—and culture is one way of getting to know each other better. Therefore, culture is a natural accelerator of trade. One of the other interests we share is ‘world order.’ Both of us would like to have a say in the formulation of international rules and regulations. There are many fora, such as the UN and the WTO where we are voicing our concerns. We share the same goals, we want the same things and now we both have the same strategy, which developed countries may not necessarily share. In the case of our two countries, it is, in fact, now difficult to tell one from the other.

India and Brazil are closer than ever today. As we are large nations that have an international presence, and we participate in most global issues, thus we are natural candidates for the expanded UN Security Council. The UN needs to be more democratic, responsible and effective, and cannot be today the same as it has been since 1945. Brazil and India’s permanent participation in the Security Council would clearly help in that way. It would be an important step, not the only step, but one that can be taken now. Together we would voice to the developing world and add credibility to the world institution.

I am honoured to be in your country. India is a priority with Brazil and this is considered a very prestigious assignment.

• High trade barriers and inward-looking policies were a feature of the sub-region in the 60´s and 70’s but it is no longer the case. Mercosul represents the fourth largest economic entity worldwide, after the European Union, the United States and Japan. This market is now among the fastest growing in the world.

It is true that during the 60s and 70s most developing countries pursued inward looking trade policies, as a way to develop their industries, diversify their economies, and reduce excessive dependence on a few commodities. In countries like Brazil, these policies fulfilled their role, but after a while, as the country’s industrial base matured a little, they had to be replaced by more outward looking trade policies. In Brazil, this started to happen in the late 80’s.

• Mercosul also has a broad internal agenda, which extends far beyond economic and trade issues. In its institutional structure, there are several working groups dealing with the so-called “Mercosul´s Social Dimension”.

Mercosul amounts to a far-reaching integration effort among its member countries - Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay and Uruguay - with an important political and social agenda, in addition to its economic aspects. Political coordination started in 1996, with a mechanism established to facilitate dialogue among member countries. One of the important decisions taken in this area are the so-called “democratic clause”, by which member countries committed themselves to democracy, and Mercosul as a whole becomes a guarantor of the performance of democratic institutions in individual states. This mechanism was useful in avoiding a military coup in one of Mercosul countries some years back. Another was the establishment with Chile and Bolivia of a peacekeeping zone in the Southern Cone, with regular consultation and cooperation on issues related to defense. A Parliament of Mercosul is under construction. The social dimension is also very rich, including cooperation in areas such as health, women affairs, education, and culture, among others. One important achievement in this area was the adoption of the labour and social charter of Mercosul, which consolidates workers rights under international conventions and monitor their application in member countries. In the cultural area, I could mention the “Mercosul Seal” to facilitate transit of cultural items for exhibitions across customs. There are many other examples.

• Benefits of the preferential trade agreement between India and Mercosul.

Bilateral trade between India and Brazil has been growing by over 20 percent per year in recent years, and has more than doubled since 2000. In 2004 Brazil exported to India some US$650 million and imported US$555 million. Although this expansion is positive we believe it could grow much more and bring great benefits to both our countries. The preferential agreement between Mercosul and India derives from this conviction. On March 19th a Mercosul-India agreement was signed to seal the list of concession covering around 450 tariff items on both sides. Our expectation is that following this, the two sides could proceed with the negotiations to increase coverage in terms of products and even go into other areas such as services, etc.

• Trade is the cement with which President Lula aims to consolidate Brazil’s alliance with the other heavyweights of the developing South. His visit to India marks progress in that strategy, which is based on specific economic interests and a shared attitude of pragmatism, unlike the efforts made within the Third World of the past. The aim is to construct a “new trade geography” in the world, says President Lula, while also stressing that this does not mean playing down the “fundamental” importance of exchange with rich countries.

This new geography of international trade becomes more and more a reality, due to the fact that the importance of countries of the so-called South in international trade flows has been growing. According to UNCTAD, developing countries account for 30 percent of world trade today, compared to 20 percent in the mid-1980s. Also, about 40 percent of developing countries’ exports now go to other developing countries, and this share has been growing around 11 percent per year. Brazil believes this trend is very positive and should be strengthened further. That is why we supported the launching of a new round of negotiations of the Global System of Trade Preferences in São Paulo, Brazil, in June 2004, during UNCTAD XI; we are now engaged, together with Mercosul, in negotiations with India and the SACU countries. This, however, does not affect our priority to a successful Doha round and the importance Brazil gives to a strong multilateral trading system under the WTO as it is in the best interest of all developing countries.

• Purpose and prospects for the G-20 grouping.

The G-20 was created with a view to make sure that the Doha Development Agenda, particularly in agriculture, is fully implemented. The emergence of the G-20 was an important element to rebalance the negotiations in agriculture within the Doha round. It has come to stay, for it is making a very healthy difference in WTO negotiations, and developing countries are finally being taken into consideration at the negotiating table.

• Brazil and India share similar perceptions on issues of interest to developing countries and have cooperated in the multilateral fora on issues such as international trade and development, environment, reform of the UN and the UN Security Council expansion.

As two large developing countries with similar potentialities as well as problems, it would be natural for Brazil and India to very often share points of view on different issues of the international agenda. Our cooperation in different international fora over the years has undoubtedly been remarkable. We are very encouraged by it, and we are working hard to make it even more encompassing and effective.

• BRIC - Brazil, Russia, India and China. Prospects for economic growth of the leading emerging market economies.

BRIC – I can only say that the Brazilian Government has been taking the necessary steps in relation to macroeconomic policy to create the conditions for sustained growth of the Brazilian economy over the long run. 2004 was a good year, with GDP growth estimated at around 5.2 percent. Inflation remains under control, at around 7 percent. Trade figures are also quite robust. Exports increased 21 percent over the previous year to reach US$96.4 billion and imports jumped 30 percent to US$63 billion.

• Any other issue(s) on which Your Excellency would wish to comment on.

I would like to add a final word on the IBSA forum, the trilateral mechanism Brazil and India share with South Africa. I have just returned from the 3rd meeting of IBSA. The IBSA mechanism is growing, with the focus being on South-South cooperation to enhance maritime and air transportation, to facilitate tourism to business trade, and to develop strong technological and cultural ties. It is a marvellous project that we Brazilians are committed to.